PZC Minutes 022885RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
MINUTES OF PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
FEBRUARY 2B, 1985
The regular meeting of the Avon Planning and Zoning
Commission was held on February 28, 1985 at 6:45 PM in the
Town Council Chambers of the Town of Avon Municipal Complex,
400 Benchmark Road, Avon, Colorado. The meeting was called
to order by Chairman Mike Blair.
Members Present: Pat Cuny, Mark: Donaldson, Cheryl Dingwell,
Mike Blair, Charlie Gersbach, Jerry Davis,
Tom Landauer
Staff Present: Norm Wood, Director of Public Works - Jim
Lamont, Planning Consultant - Maggie Lach,
Recording Secretary
_Work Session
Blair introduced and welcomed new Commission member, Charlie
Gersbach.
Commission reviewer' and commented on rough draft of Sign Code
with regard to fine art definition, portable signs, joint
directory signs and freestanding signs.
Blair mentioned Fogland's memo regarding a Special Work
Session for March 21, 1985 for discussion of Sign Code and
Design Rules.
Regular Agenda Items _ 7._35 PM
Reading and Anergyy-al of P & Z
Meeting
Davis motioned to approve the
regular meeting as submitted.
Donaldson seconded.
Gersbach abstained.
Motion carried.
Minutes of :/14/85 Regular
minutes of February 14, 1985
Election of Secretary to Planning & Zgning Commission
Davis nominated Pat Cony as Secretary to the Commission.
Donaldson seconded.
Passed unanimously.
White Annexation - A Parcel located in NE 1/41 SE 1/41 §< NW
1/441 SE_ 1%41 Section 1=1 15_91 R_8urhe
2W1 as ftr described by
Legal Description - Zoning Change to SPA - Pub_lic Hearing
Zoning Change Request Withdrawn
Wood stated that procedure for Public Hearing on this item
had been done prior to official annexation request coming to
Town Council. Town Attorney felt that applicant should
withdraw the request for zoning change until formal
application had been made to Town Council for annexation.
Knight Planning Services submitted a letter requesting
Planning &< Zoning Meeting Minutes
February 28, 1935
Page 2 of 1.'
White Annexation, Con t_
withdrawal of the zoning change request.
Blair opened public hearing.
There being no one winning to be heard, the public hearing
was closed.
Cuny motioned to accept applicants request for withdrawal of
the zoning change request for the White Annexation. Dingwell
seconded.
Passed unanimously.
Lot _8, Plock 4, W.R. - Satellite Antenna _ Design Review
Wood stated that satellite antenna had already been
installed, but applicant was requesting design review. A
rendering of the home with satellite placement has been
submitted. Staff report states that satellite does comply,
location should be verified so it is not located in setbacks
or easements, and it is somewhat visible from the west and
north. The color of the dish is black: and white and
screening is suggested.
Richard Irwin, president of Universal Satellite Systems, and
representative of owner John Fawcett stated that antenna is
installed and feels that it does comply with easements and
setbacks.
Irwin presented photos of home and antenna placement.
Irwin stated antenna was installed at owners request because
there is no cable service to that area. The resident would
like to keep satellite as a permanent installation.
Wildridge Covenants state that antennas are allowable on a
temporary basis until high density cable subscription service
is available. Irwin stated he agreed that area should be
bermed and include vegetation. He did not feel dish needed
paint because the winter season lasts about 6 months. He
also stated that if cable becomes available, it is owners
right to keep antenna there.
Davis felt that owner does not necessarily have the right to
install dishes that have not been approved. He felt it was a
special type of review use and admonished applicant for
installing the antenna without review, nor has it been
addressed before in Avon.
Concerns were mentioned regarding permanency of antenna.
Irwin stated that pole that supports antenna is cemented to
ground, but dish can be moved.
Cuny asked if adjacent property owners had been notified.
Irwin stated no, that the closest house or building was 1/4
mile away.
Davis had no problem with installation as temporary use until
cable is available or an ordinance by the Town of Avon that
regulates satellite antennas from design review standpoint.
Blair asked if zonimg allowed this use.
Planning and Zoning Meeting Minutes
February 26, 1905
Page _ of i'
Lot OOsHlock 4, W_R_ _ Satellite Antenna _ Design Rev_iew3,
Con 't.
Wood stated it could be allowed as a central system or until
cable is available.
Irwin stated that satellite is a round parabolic dish, S feet
off the ground.
Landauer felt that dish should be painted to match house
because there is only -4 months of snow on that side of the
valley.
Irwin suggested a 4 foot berm behind dish for screening.
Dingwell motioned to accept application as a temporary
installation until cable is availabe to the residence and/or
an ordinance to allow the dish; that it be painted to match
the house, and a berm be included around the backside of dish
for screening.
Davis seconded.
Passed unanimously.
Lot 211 Hloc4_: 4s .J_R_ _ Single Family Residence - Design
Review
Dingwell stepped down from discussion due to a conflict of
interest.
Wood stated that applicant is proposing a single family
residence on Lot 21, Block 4, Wildridge Subdivision. The
home is 3 levels with garage, utilizing solar panels in
window areas. The proposed materials are wood shingles,
cedar siding, facia and trim. The project generally conforms
to design guidelines. Clarification is needed for colors,
and type of wood retaining walls. There is a question as to
whether the drive will be entirely paved or just a portion,
and verification of easement across Lot 22 providing access
to this project. Drawings and site plans have been submitted
and appear to be very complete and in order.
Kirk Aker, architect and representative of owner reviewed and
discussed site plans with Commission.
Aker presented evidence of the recorded easement and stated
that this would allow access to the property. The driveway
will be paved in front of garage and rest would be compacted
road base. The colors are Olympic stain 716 for majority of
house and Olympic stain 726 for trim. Windows are dark clad
brown and roof is wood shal::e shingles. Liveable area is
2,000 SF and does not include unfinished basement or garage.
The project is nestled into site to avoid disturbance of most
of the site and is situated on duple: lot.
Concerns were mentioned regarding driveway not being
completely paved.
Aker stated that landscaing would be natural vegetation,
and are going to try to perserve the sage etc. Cottonwood
trees will be used in drainage swales.
Planning & Zoning fleeting Mintues
February 28, 1985
Page 4 of 13
Lot 21s Bl9c4_: 11 W_R_ _ Single Family Residence _ Design
Rev -i ews Con t_
Donaldson felt project was well conceived and well sited and
handsome project for the area.
Donaldson motioned to approve the design review of the single
fmaily residence on Lot 21, Block 4, Wildridge Subdivision,
as submitted.
Davis seconded.
Davis commented that adequate roadbase be put on drive.
Dingwell abstained.
Motion carried.
Staff commended architect for professional nature in which
materi-zl was presented.
Lodge at Avon Subdivision (Formerly Lots 57_61 Blocks BM
G BC) - Development Sign = Design F_'ev_iew
Dingwell rejoined Commission discussion.
Wood stated that development sign is for proposed Lodge at
Avon project. He stated that the sign generally complies
with Sign Code and proposed Sign Code, except for the
height. The sign dimensions are 12' 1(Y" in height x 7' 6" in
width. However, based on definitions, the top round portion
of the sign is an integral part of the display and the height
requirement is F feet. Based an this assumption, the sign is
4' 10" too high. The sign sould be located at least 10' from
property lines.
Drawing of sign and site plan were submitted for review.
Bill Pierce, representative of Lodge at Avon Associates
stated that there might be verbage changes on the sign and
perhaps some phone numbers. He explained that they would not
have to put the round part of the sign on top, but it was put
on as a decorative feature. If height were 8 feet, it would
be too low and they would consider removing the top round
portion of the sign.
Donaldson asked if it would be out of the Io' setbacks.
Pierce stated it would be no problem.
Pierce stated there was no color rendering submitted, but
that the colors are dart; green letters and white background.
Realtor colors are black, red and white for Ski and Shore.
Davis had no problem with the sign being higher than what is
stated in regulations due to the fact that the lettering,
in comparison to the sign, is much smaller.
Dingwell motioned to approve the development sign for Lodge
at Avon, formerly Lots 57-64, Block 2, Benchmark at Beaver
Creek, even though it is higher than it is supposed to be due
to the fact that it is a good sign design, and approval is
not to exceed 2 years.
Davis seconded.
Passed unanimously.
Planning & Zoning Meeting Minutes
February 28, 1985
Page 5 of 13
Lodge at Avon Subdivision _S_R_U_ -Mixed Use Parking
Reduction
Wood stated that Commission reviewed Preliminary Plat at last
meeting for Lodge at Avon and it was pointed out that if
lease from Highway Department were terminated, the protect
would be short parking spaces. A revised site plan has been
submitted showing the projected parking requirements of 158
spaces in combination with the reduction in parking
requirement through the Special Review Use, and this can be
met on-site even if the lease is terminated. Wood stated
that there are 2 ways to consider the allowable parking
reduction: one is for mixed use lots, wiich does meet this
requirement. What is allowed under this reduction is that no
more than 25% of normal park::ing requirements for a specific
use with a total reduction being no more than 20% of the
normal requirement. The other method is large lot reduction.
Based upon 158 spaces, the reduction that would be allowed
would be 10% or 15 spaces. Wood stated that there is mixed
use of the project, accommodation and commercial, and on the
assumption that the people in accommodation units would be
using commercial space, and taking the maximum of 25% for
commercial space uses times 69 spaces allocated, would allow
a reduction of 17 spaces. This is within the 20% reduction
using maximum mixed use reduction. Wood felt a 17 space
reduction is realistic. The revised site plan provides 164
spaces of which 21 could be lost if Highway Department lease
is terminated, which would leave 143 spaces on-site. With
maximum mixed use reduction and based upon projected
commercial uses, the minimum parking requirement would be 141
spaces. With maximum large lot reduction, based on projected
commercial uses, minimum parking requirement would be 143
spaces. The revised site plan showing pervious open space
area with revised part.-Ang plan meets the useable open space
requirement of 20%. Wood recommended that Preliminary Plat
and plat be revised in accordance with the site plan if this
application is approved.
Bill Pierce, representive of Lodge at Avon Associates
explained his interpretation of the mixed use reduction.
Wood stated that he believed Pierce was asking for a Tull 20%
reduction of the total requirement of 158 or 31 spaces, and
felt ordinance could not be stretched.
Lengthy discussion followed.
Blair opened public hearing.
There being no one wishing to be heard, the public hearing
was closed.
Donaldson motioned to approve the Special Review Use for
Lodge at Avon Condominiums (formerly Lots 57-60, Block 2,
Planning & Zoning Meeting Minutes
February 28, 1985
Page 6 of 13
Lodge at Avon Subdivision _ S_F_U _ Mixed Use ParL_i ng
Reductions Con 't_
Benchmark: at Beaver Creek) for mixed use reduction in
parking. The Commission found that applicant was in
compliance with items 1-3 of Findings Required for Special
Review use. Mixed use reduction is for 17 spaces and plat is
to be revised in accordance with site plan as
submitted.
Dingwell seconded.
Passed unanimously.
Lots 73/74, Block 2, PM C B.0 - Savoy Sgugre _ Design Rev-iew
Lamont stated that applicant had applied for 212 residential
units, building is pre -cast, 8 floors, 2 levels of
underground parking with a gross SF of 354,963. There is
approximately 28,000 SF of commercial and there is requisite
number of development rights necessary, and project generally
complies with open space building coverage, snow storage,
etc. Building height at its peak is 95 feet. The most
restrictive interpretation of the zoning code application for
averaging heights would yield a height of 82' 3". This could
be changed to 80' by increasing the exterior grade on the
west and north by 2' 3". The project will require a Special
Review Use for compact car spaces and large lot reduction.
Staff recommends final approval not be given until final
items be addressed (1-10 on Staff report).
John Eden, architect for Savoy Square gave an overview of
what had been presented and discussed at previous meetings,
along with some changes made per Staff recommendations.
Lamont presented his comments on Savoy Square with regard to
goals for Development District II. He stated that his
comments raise issues that are of community wide concerns and
was not sure that this project could resolve them on its own.
He stated that these items are dealt with on 2 levels: one is
site considerations and the second is how the project may
conflict with goals. The topics t.:, addressed included
housing, transportation and circulation, community facilities
and community design.
Eden responded to Lamont's comments and stated that this
project evolved through the rules and regulations that are in
effect now and made effort to address all of those with this
project. He felt it unfair to client to require him to
completely redesign the zone, and require variances under
recommendation of Staff, and no longer knows wh'ch direction
to take. He commented on each poiit. presented in Lamont's
memo submitted to Commission with regard to height of
building, time share, and entrances to parking structure.
Eden stated project would not be phased, but built all at
once.
Planning & Zoning Meeting Minutes
February 28, 1985
Page 7 of 13
Lots 73/74,- Bloc4_: 2� BM C BC = Sav_oY Sgus
are = Deign Reviews
C_o_n_'t_.
Davis agreed with Eden's comments and felt that amenities
should be tied down and what is going to be provided.
Donaldson commented on adoption of working goals.
Davis stated this project came in before adoption and that
other projects that had been approved recently should be
required to come back for redesign and did not feel this was
fair.
Cuny agreed with Davis and comments made, and reviewed points
1-10 of Staff report.
Donaldson commented on second entrance to parking structure
and felt it would be helpful.
Discussion followed between Commission members and Eden
regarding parking structure.
Wood reviewed items 1-10 of Staff report with Commission
members and stated that with regard to platting process and
fractionalization, platting would resolve this issue, which
is in regard to the design of the unit. The unit has a piece
of furniture or wall that may have a difference as to whether
the unit is an efficiency unit at 1/3 development right or a
one bedroom unit with 1/2 density right, and this will
determine if they have sufficient density rights.
Wood presented plans to Commission to review interior of
unit and stated that as it is shown, it is an efficiency
unit, but the piece of furniture, if it goes floor to ceiling
with the door in it, becomes a one beoroom unit.
Dennis Cole, representative of applicant stated that diagram
shows a piece of furniture that goes from wall to wall, floor
to ceiling and i-: a complete room divider, if you want to
look at it that way, and it has a sliding pocket door. our
position is that this unit is an efficiency, and if there is
any question an this it needs to be resolved immediately.
Cuny and Donaldson agreed that it was a one bedroom unit.
Cole stated if it were a fixed wall, it would be a one
bedroom, but we are putting a piece of furniture there.
Eden asked Commission how they would police furniture
placement.
Wood stated difference between one bedroom and efficiency is
the number of units that can go on there with the development
rights that they have. At a 3-1 ratio with 71 units, they
would be allowed 213 efficiency units. The 2-1 ratio of a
one bedroom unit would be 142 one bedroom units. With regard
to parking, one bedroom units require 1 1/2 spaces per unit
and efficiency units require 1 space.
Davis did not care if unit were efficiency or one bedroom.
He felt perhaps a limitation of SF would be more appropriate.
Donaldson read definition of efficiency unit from the Avon
Municipal Code and felt attempt was being made to build a one
Planning and Zoning Meeting Minutes
February 28, 1985
Page 8 of 13
Lots 73/74.,_ CilocF_:1 BM @ BC _ Savoy Sguare _ Design
Reviews Con t_
bedroom unit.
Wood continued with remaining points of Staff report.
Eden felt- that most points of Staff report could be met.
Donaldson felt that unit was a one bedroom unit with
furniture as shown.
Cole stated that in order for this project to fit in
with their time frame, the project would have to be built
this summer. This project makes economic sense only if we
have 212 units and use the efficiency, and for time share use
a piece of furniture needs to be installed as described. We
need that determination if this unit is efficiency or not.
If not, we cannot do this project. We are asking for
feedback from Commission as to those items that would need tc
be worked on.
Discussion followed on definition of efficiency unit between
Commission and applicant.
Cole felt requirement of SF was easier to maintain than what
is put in unit. He asked for clarification of efficiency
unit.
Discussion followed on efficiency unit and fractionalization
ordinance.
Donaldson motioned to continue the application of Savoy
Square to the next regular meeting until feedback from
Council is obtained regarding the definition of efficiency
unit.
Motion died due to lack of a second.
Davis motioned approval of the preliminary design review with
recommended conditions for Savoy Square, Lots 77./74, Block 2,
Benchmark at Beaver Creek. Conditions are numbers 1-10 of
Staff report and to include considerations for a second
entrance for parking level, consider incorporation of sky
bridge, at later date, in design of building, and submittal
of letter which states amenities to be in building; an
agreement is to be made with neighboring property owners for
shared access to parking and clarification of efficiency unit
versus a one bedroom unit.
Dingwell seconded.
Donaldson and Landauer opposed.
Motion carried.
Davis suggested that Staff request that Council address the
issue of efficiency and one bedroom units.
Lot 6i1 Bloc4_: =s BM @ BC _ Peregrine Village _ Preliminary
Plat Review_
Wood stated this was continuation from previous meeting of
February 14, 1985. Revised site plan has been submitted
showing revised surface parking layout with open space and a
Planning & Zoning Meeting Minutes
February 28, 1985
Page 9 of 13
Lot 63y Bloc4_ 2� BM C BC _ Peregrine Village = Preliminary
Flat F_'ev_i ew,i Con t
letter submitted by Town Attorney John Dunn regarding his
interpretation of open space requirements. Dunn's
interpretation is that there is a conflict between the Design
Review Regulations and the Zoning Code. The Zoning Code was
adopted by Ordinance whereas the Design Review Regulations
were adopted by resolution, and that the Zoning Code was
adopted after the Design Review Regulations. Dunn feels
The Zoning Code would take precedence over the Design Review
Rules. Design Review Rules call for a 25% pervious area on
each lot and the Zoning Code, for the Town Center district,
calls for 20% useable open space. Dunn feels that useable
open space can include walkways, mall type areas, etc.
Wood reviewed and discussed revised site plan with Commission
members and stated that landscape areas were outlined, open
space areas are paved, mall area calls for brick pavers and
landscaping plan has been revised and parking appears to work
very well. Loading spaces appear to function well and meet
the requirement of current code. Pervious open space is
11.8% of total site and impervious open space equals 13.6%,
totalling 25.4%. Wood stated that parking has been resolved
and request that they come back to next meeting with parking
layout.
Frick Larson of PPL Development, representing applicant stated
that Wood had covered most points and said it would be
Commission's decision to determine interpretation of useable
open space.
Donaldson asked what percentage of impervious materials were
decorative.
Larson stated it would be about 5�)-50 of the 13-.6%.
Commission reviewed and discussed submitted plans with
Larson.
Davis motioned to approve, with recommended conditions, the
revised landscaping and surface parking plan for Peregrine
Village Condominiums, Lot 6.3, Block 2, Benchmark: at Beaver
Creek, and recommended that Town Council table action on
Preliminary Plat pending review by the Commission of the
parking layout. Items 1-3 of Staff report determined that
there is 25% Useable open space.
Cuny seconded.
Donaldson suggested that a clear definition of open space and
a formula be found that Commission could live with for other
projects, and note that this motion was based on exter,;tating
circumstances of the project being under construction.
Passed unanimously.
Planning & Zoning Meeting Minutes
February 28, 1985
Page 10 of 13
Lot 6 Bloc4_: Qs BL1 @ BC - Peregrine Village - Variance
Reguest = Ogen Space Reduction
Wood stated variance request was applied for in case the
previous action taken on Preliminary Plat was not approved.
Public notices have been sent.
Blair opened public hearing.
There being no one wishing to be heard, the public hearing
was closed.
Ric Larson of PPL Development, representative of applicant
stated they formally request withdrawal of application for
vz.riance request.
Donaldson motioned to accept applicants request for
withdrawal of application for a variance request for
reduction in useable open space requirement for Peregrine
Village Condominiums, Lot 63, Block 2, Benchmark at Beaver
Creek:.
Davis seconded.
Passed unanimously.
Lot 63A Blocls 2s EM C BC - Peregrine Village _ S.R.U. _-
Tr&nsFerof 30 DeveloDment Rights to Lot 55, B1ocF:: 2S PM @ BC
Wood stated that Municipal Code allows for transfer of
dwelling or accommodation unit densities as a Special Review
Use. Our records indicate an assigned dwelling unit density
of 103 units on Lot 63 and assigned dwelling unit density of
0 units on Lot 55. Wood stated he did request an opinion
from Town Attorney regarding how this applied with Zoning
Regulations, and said Attorney's letter was attached. The
Town Attorney stated that transfer could be approved if
Commission agrees with Findings Required for Special Review
Use.
Wood reviewed items 1-3, Findings Required for Special Review
Use and Special Review Criteria., A-E.
Greg Gage, representative of applicant stated that transfer
was within Town Center and was not changing average density.
Blair opened public hearing.
There being no one wishing to be heard, the public hearing
was closed.
Davis questioned the location of Lot 55.
Gage stated it was Avon Center's new parking lot, on the
corner- of Avon Road and West Beaver Cree4:: Boulevard.
Blair questioned the purpose of the transfer of density.
Gage stated that Ordinance allows transfer of unused density
and after reviewing the unit denisty for Peregrine, it was
found that there were 30 unused density rights. They want to
transfer them to a lot with no density, which are whole
density rights. Cal -Colorado Investors own Lot 55 and are
owners of Avon Center.
Concerns were mentioned regarding access, types of uses that
Planning &< Zoning Meeting Minutes
February 28, 1985
Page It of 13
Lot 1�, B1oc4_ 2L BM C BC - Peregrine Village - S_E_U_ -
Transfer of_ 30 Dev-elopment Rights to Lot 55. Eilock _s HM C SC
Cont_
potentially could be put on lot, and the impact with regard
to Development Plan.
Wood explained that Dunn's letter stated that Commission
could approve the application provided that it satisfied the
Commission's findings regarding impact on access, parking and
public transportatin and other public or priva_e services.
Gage believed that owners of Lot 55 would not be submitting
plan for development nor would PPL Development.
Davis felt if density rights were transferred, Commission
would need to know if it is suitable for that lot.
Blair suggested that more time was needed to study the impact
of this transfer.
Commission members agreed.
Donaldson- felt that points presented in Dunn's letter were
valid and warranted further study.
Davis agreed with Donaldson and felt Town Engineer should
review ingress and egress.
Discussion followed.
Applicant stated he wished to continue the application to the
next regular meeting.
Blair suggested that Staff review impact of density transfer.
Tract Q South,.,, Block 21 BM [ BC _ Conceptual Review _
Informal Discussion
-------- ----------
Wood stated applicant had submitted revised site plan that
addresses front setback: requirements, site circulation,
building orientation and access. These were identified at
the design review of the proposed Wendy's restaurant.
Bill Fierce, representative of owner of Tract Q stated he
wanted to address concerns of last meeting.
Pierce presented revised plan and reviewed and discussed plan
with Commission members. He stated there is twice as much
parking as the ordinance requires. Access has been provided
along the south of parcel. Site design is totally
independent of access from the north.
Jim Cunningham, applicant stated that they had discussion
with Wendy's regarding design of building, portico, wood
siding instead of brick and moss rock: in front of the green-
house. The building is 3,500 SF on a 21,000 SF lot, which is
less than 15%.
Landauer felt building should be at least a 2-3 story
building so that it is not out of scale.
Discussion followed on design of building.
Cuny did not feel location met goals of Development Flan.
Donaldson felt roof materials needed review and
consideration.
Planning and Zoning Meeting Minutes
February 28, 1985
Page 12 of 13
Tract 0 South. Plock: 2. BM C HC _ Conceptual Review _
I_nformal Discussion. goat.
Gersbach did not feel that Avon attracts the family visitor
in the summer or winter and that this restaurant may attract
that visitor.
Davis had no opposition to having restaurant there as long as
architect has acceptable building that matches current
architecture in town. He felt he could live with it even
though it is not what he would like to see.
Blair agreed with Davis and felt it would work: with revised
plan, as did other Commission members.
Blair thanked applicant for presentation.
No formal action was taken.
Other Business_
Blair mentioned enclosed letter to be sent to Town Council
regarding proposed resubdivision of Tract 0.
Davis motioned to approve the letter and that it be sent to
Town Council, regarding proposed Tract 0 South, Block 2,
Benchmark:: at Beaver Creek.
Landauer seconded.
Passed unanimously.
Cunningham asked Commission if appropriate plans, landscape
plans that conform with open space and setbacks, snow
removal, and trash area, etc. were presented for Trace 0
South, would it be worth the time of the Commission to
reconsider development on that lot.
Commission members agreed that it would.
Concerns were mentioned regarding the length of the
Commission meetings.
There being no further business to discuss, Cuny motioned to
adjourn the meeting.
Landauer seconded.
Passed unanimously.
Meeting adjourned at 1:00 AM.
Respectfully it
te�
g et M. ach
Recording Secretary
Planning & Zoning Meeting Minutes
February 28, 19851
Page 13 of 13
Commission AVpr
Date
M. Blair -'Z4"�"�'--1=�1==
P. Cuny _
J. Davis _
T. Landauer
M. Donaldson
C. Dingwell _
C. Gersbach
4